Posts by Disillusioned JW

17

Where did Enoch go - God transferred him?

by Fisherman in

god did not take the lives of the wicked contemporaries of enoch, instead he took the life of enoch.

and that seems like a great injustice to deprive innocent enoch of life instead of killing the wicked.

—i said seems.. a man goes to get surgery but first they give him an opiate like narcotic and he falls asleep gladly and with pleasure and euphoria.

Disillusioned JW

Fisherman, in regards to my words about that which I called coincidences and about me being mystified by them, I meant I don't know what the cause is of such happening. Their cause is a mystery to me. Some people say everyone and everything is interconnected in the universe. I wonder if that is the explanation, but I don't know if it is. The incidences might not be really be coincidences, but if not what why do they happen?

38

Replacing God?

by punkofnice in

we seem to be if a more secular society here in the west, these days.

i'm speaking from the uk.. with the lack of belief in god/s, i'm wondering if all the seeming (note: i said seeming!

), deification of people like greta thunberg, george floyd and celebs amongst others, if people who have no real belief system, are filling the gap left by god with people?.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding Greta's message about climate change and tipping points being true and being solidly based upon science see the abstract of the science article from two days ago located at https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abn7950 . This article is in the journal named Science. It's conclusion (as stated in the abstract) says the following. "Our assessment provides strong scientific evidence for urgent action to mitigate climate change. We show that even the Paris Agreement goal of limiting warming to well below 2°C and preferably 1.5°C is not safe as 1.5°C and above risks crossing multiple tipping points. Crossing these CTPs can generate positive feedbacks that increase the likelihood of crossing other CTPs. Currently the world is heading toward ~2 to 3°C of global warming; at best, if all net-zero pledges and nationally determined contributions are implemented it could reach just below 2°C. This would lower tipping point risks somewhat but would still be dangerous as it could trigger multiple climate tipping points."

"Humans must limit global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius to avoid runaway ice melting, ocean current disruption and permanent coral reef death, according to new research by an international group of climate scientists.

The new study is the latest and most comprehensive evidence indicating that countries must enact policies to meet the temperature targets set by the 2015 Paris agreement, if humanity hopes to avoid potentially catastrophic sea level rise and other worldwide harms."

17

Where did Enoch go - God transferred him?

by Fisherman in

god did not take the lives of the wicked contemporaries of enoch, instead he took the life of enoch.

and that seems like a great injustice to deprive innocent enoch of life instead of killing the wicked.

—i said seems.. a man goes to get surgery but first they give him an opiate like narcotic and he falls asleep gladly and with pleasure and euphoria.

Disillusioned JW

According to the Bible, God did not end Enoch's life. The WT is wrong to say that according to the Bible God killed Enoch. About an hour before you made you post I searched this web site to see if anyone had a post about this topic, since yours had not yet been posted. [I saw the topic located at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/156276/enoch-watchtower-society which mostly recently received a post 6 months ago, and I thought of posting there but I decided not to.] I did the search very after reading a box on a page in The NIV Student Bible, Revised, Compact Edition (Copyright 198, 1992, 2002). I found that box because I had been browsing through that book last night to decide if I should keep it or sell it (I had not studied that book in years). The box says the following.

'5:24 The Man Who Did Not Die

All but one of the brief biographies in chapter 5 end with the words "and then he died." We know very little about the exception, Enoch, except that he walked with God. Enoch did not die; he "was no more, because god took him away." Based on this evidence, Hebrews 11:5-6 commends Enoch as a man of faith, since "without faith it is impossible to please God." '

I am very surprised that you made this topic thread very shortly after I had searched to see if there had already been created on this web site a topic thread about Enoch being taken away. I have also noticed similar coincidences in regards to some other topic threads and in other experiences in my life. Such is mystifying to me.

38

Replacing God?

by punkofnice in

we seem to be if a more secular society here in the west, these days.

i'm speaking from the uk.. with the lack of belief in god/s, i'm wondering if all the seeming (note: i said seeming!

), deification of people like greta thunberg, george floyd and celebs amongst others, if people who have no real belief system, are filling the gap left by god with people?.

Disillusioned JW

Some are using the word 'believe" in this topic differently than I do. I simply use it in the broad sense of "consider as true", whether one which is known (as much as anything can be known) is true or not. To me considering oneself as knowing something is true is a type of believing something is true. To me that is what the word believe means, and dictionaries include it as a definition of the word believe. But in the past 20 years or so I notice that a number of atheists and agnostics don't have that broad definition of the word "believe", but I have been having that meaning of the word "believe" since childhood (and thus for decades). I think they do that because the word "believe" is often used in a strictly religious sense and in the sense of considering something to be when one does not have strong proof that it is true.

For example I believe I will die some day. Likewise I believe the WT has a number of false teachings and I very strongly believe no personal god exists. I also know the WT has a number of false teachings. Some would say that they are not beliefs, but rather knowledge, but I say they are both.

People need to make decisions and take appropriate actions and in order to do so people need to classify ideas as ones which they consider to be true and ones which consider as false or completely uncertain.

Regarding the question of "If ones just evolved from a big bang and pond slime, why would they feel a need to build gods of wood or stone?", why not? People try to make sense of what they experience and they don't want to suffer. As a result long ago when human society had much less knowledge of science (or even no knowledge of science), many people concluded that some being (or beings) must have made the world. They also concluded that some being (or beings) must be causing woes (such as earthquakes and diseases) and also helping people at other times. They thus concluded that one or more god or spirit exists and that it is beneficial to make appeal to it or them. Some of the people also concluded it is beneficial to make a visual representation (such as out of wood or stone) of what they thought it looked like, as a mental aid. Some of them (the people who made the images) might have got the idea from dreams and/or hallucinations, falsely thinking they were seeing real beings.

Furthermore, some people long ago probably had hallucinations of their graven images (made out of wood and out of stone, even ones which they themselves personally made) as talking and as moving. As a result those people concluded that the graven images were also gods/spirits (or that gods/spirits were communicating through the images). See the book (copyright 1976) by Julian Jaynes called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. I own a copy of that book. One thing the book says that until about 2,500 (or 3,000) years ago it was common the mind of most (or at least many) humans to be 'in a state in which cognitive functions were divided between one part of the brain which appears to be "speaking", and a second part which listens and obeys—a bicameral mind, and that the evolutionary breakdown of this division gave rise to consciousness in humans.' The quote is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameral_mentality . Please see that article. The article also says the following.

'The term was coined by Julian Jaynes, who presented the idea in his 1976 book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind,[1] wherein he made the case that a bicameral mentality was the normal and ubiquitous state of the human mind as recently as 3,000 years ago, near the end of the Mediterranean bronze age. ... Jaynes uses "bicameral" (two chambers) to describe a mental state in which the experiences and memories of the right hemisphere of the brain are transmitted to the left hemisphere via auditory hallucinations.

... According to Jaynes, ancient people in the bicameral state of mind would have experienced the world in a manner that has some similarities to that of a person with schizophrenia. Rather than making conscious evaluations in novel or unexpected situations, the person would hallucinate a voice or "god" giving admonitory advice or commands and obey without question: One would not be at all conscious of one's own thought processes per se. Jaynes's hypothesis is offered as a possible explanation of "command hallucinations" that often direct the behavior of those with first rank symptoms of schizophrenia, as well as other voice hearers.[2]

... In ancient times, Jaynes noted, gods were generally much more numerous and much more anthropomorphic than in modern times, and speculates that this was because each bicameral person had their own "god" who reflected their own desires and experiences.[4] He also noted that in ancient societies the corpses of the dead were often treated as though still alive (being seated, dressed, and even fed) as a form of ancestor worship, and Jaynes argued that the dead bodies were presumed to be still living and the source of auditory hallucinations.[3]'

When I talk (in person face to face) to religious persons (including ones who are Christians) who are certain that a god and other spirits exist, many of them say they have seen spirits, heard them, and felt them. In many cases I think they are reporting dreams (such as ones which they might have had in a sleep paralysis state while partially conscious) and hallucinations, but they think they really did experience real spirits. These people include some of my coworkers. These are people I know well enough that I get the very strong impression that they are completely sincere in what they are telling me on this matter.

38

Replacing God?

by punkofnice in

we seem to be if a more secular society here in the west, these days.

i'm speaking from the uk.. with the lack of belief in god/s, i'm wondering if all the seeming (note: i said seeming!

), deification of people like greta thunberg, george floyd and celebs amongst others, if people who have no real belief system, are filling the gap left by god with people?.

Disillusioned JW

Greta Thunberg's message is a truthful one, which is well founded in scientific knowledge. Many more people need to recognize that is a truth - a very major truth. It is as big a truth as biological evolution (including human evolution).

68

Where it all went wrong for the WT - JF Rutherford

by LoveUniHateExams in

i was thinking a bit about this the other day.

ct russell, from what i remember about him, kinda seemed like a genuine, nice(ish) guy, although he had a few eccentric but harmless ideas.. during the russell era jws (actually bible students) could still celebrate christmas, worship in other churches if there was no kingdom hall available, and accept blood transfusions.. then after russell died, along came rutherford - a major league a-hole, for sure.. rutherford had plenty of eccentric ideas but at least some of them weren't/aren't harmless.

some have been long forgotten about - jesus depicted without a beard, the plan to rename the names of the week because names such as thursday (thor's day) is pagan, the articles about the 'dangers' of aluminium, etc.. one key contribution of rutherford which does a lot of harm is no blood transfusions, even in life-threatening situations.. another is shunning, something which never occurred under russell, or at least was much milder.. rutherford has a lot to answer for, i reckon ....

Disillusioned JW

The influence which the WT has comes from the Bible and the widespread acceptance of the Bible by a great many people. If no one believed in the Bible the WT would be powerless to persuade people. The problem is much bigger than the WT and its false teachings. The problem is also the Bible and its numerous false teachings. That message needs to be presented to people. For example, if I had known prior to age 15 that the Bible contains numerous falsehoods, I would never have become baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. A similar situation exists with other ex-Witnesses and other ex-Christians, and other ex-religious people.

The problem is also with other scripture books, including the Koran and the Hadith and the Hindu scriptures, and their false teachings. That message also needs to be presented to the people. Many people in other Christian religions and many people in non-Christians religions are also suffering greatly from their religions.

25

faithful and discreet slave appointed in 1919?

by enoughisenough in

12 when did jesus appoint the faithful slave over his domestics?

to answer that, we need to go back to 1914—the beginning of the harvest season.

as we learned earlier, at that time many groups claimed to be christian.

Disillusioned JW

Jeffro, nothing in my post ascribed anything special about the Bible Student belief that the Jews would be restored to their homeland. I thus was not manifesting confirmation bias. I merely made a correct statement. Perhaps you are the one who manifested confirmation bias when you incorrectly implied that I had manifested confirmation bias. It appears that you read into post more than what I stated in my post.

I am well aware that a number of people were working to get the Jews restored to their home land.

24

Two Bible teachings JW's DON'T know about....

by BoogerMan in

....but the november 2022 study watchtower will definitely instruct them.. 1) god's name is jehovah!.

2) jehovah is using an earthly organization to do his will - not jesus!.

in study article 45, 'jehovah' is mentioned at least 60 times.

Disillusioned JW

The 1898 ARV also says "He who was manifested in the flesh". The 2003 HCSB says "He was manifested in the flesh", which a translators' note saying "3:16 Other mss read God".

The 1991 NAB (a Catholic Bible, of which the translation team included some non-Catholic Christian translators [who are kindly referred to as "separated brothers"]) at 1 Timothy 3:16 says "Who was manifested in the flesh". The translators' annotation/commentary for it says the following which I think is very interesting. '3, 16:Who: the reference is to Christ, who is himself "the mystery of devotion." Some predominantly Western manuscripts read "which," harmonizing the gender of the pronoun with that of the Greek word for mystery; many later (eighth/ninth century on), predominately Byzantine manuscripts read "God," possibly for theological reasons.'

16

A look at Robert Alter’s translation: The Hebrew Bible

by Wonderment in

a look at robert alter’s translation: the hebrew biblethree volumes labeled as, "the five books of moses"; "the writings"; and "prophets.

"verse numbers appear in the margins.

my take: some view this as a plus, since this allows for continuous, undistracted reading.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks Wonderment! After I had posted my question to you I asked an ethnically Jewish person of the Jewish religion who reads some of the Scriptures in Hebrew (and even now from an unpointed text) as well as in English, if the biblical Hebrew language has a word meaning "of". One thing she said is that it has the word "shel" but based upon your answer to me I now know she was incorrect to say the biblical Hebrew has that word, though modern Hebrew has it.

25

faithful and discreet slave appointed in 1919?

by enoughisenough in

12 when did jesus appoint the faithful slave over his domestics?

to answer that, we need to go back to 1914—the beginning of the harvest season.

as we learned earlier, at that time many groups claimed to be christian.

Disillusioned JW

Hey Jeffro, regarding their 1919 teaching of "The ‘Jews to be restored to their homeland’ is literal' is something they got right, but they fully abandoned it just before it came true! They fully abandoned it just before Israel became a nation again in 1948. Regarding their former teaching of "The ‘great company’ (great crowd) has a heavenly hope" that is what the Bible book of Revelation teaches.

Vanderhoven7, I notice you said "the most important thing Russell got right was his stand against both immortality of the soul and related eternal torment teaching." Does that mean you (whom I thought was an evangelical mainstream Christian) believes the human soul is not immortal and that you believe the widespread doctrine of eternal torment in hell is false?